Ep 25: How to Divorce a Gaslighter: Special Guest Interview with Matrimonial Attorney & Divorce Law Expert Lisa Zeiderman

Overview

 

Lisa Zeiderman joins the podcast to share her insight and expertise, as a Matrimonial Attorney and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, on what it is like to divorce a gaslighter. Lisa is a Managing Partner at Miller, Zeiderman & Wiederkehr LLP, and regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters for high-net-worth individuals. In 2019, she was named one of the ’10 Best Family Law Attorneys for Client Satisfaction’ by the American Institute of Family Law Attorneys. Now, you may be wondering, “What exactly is gaslighting?”. Gaslighting is among the most subtle yet damaging forms of emotional abuse. It is a strategy deployed by those who seek to control others’ behavior and/or obscure their own behavior. In this episode, Marcy and Lisa discuss how some individuals use lying in the service of manipulation and control; it is an ongoing issue in some marriages or divorces where one spouse may be diagnosed as a narcissist or may suffer from other mental health disorders. A gaslighter’s goal is to destabilize the other person to the point where the victim questions his/her mental stability and diminishes his/her self-confidence and self-esteem. Learn more about Lisa and her work at https://mzwnylaw.com

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Matrimonial Attorney & Divorce Law

Marcy:

Lisa, thank you for joining us.

 

Lisa:

Thanks so much for having me. I’m so thrilled to be doing this with you, Marcy.

 

Marcy:

Awesome. Well, today we have a very, very compelling topic, and that is on divorcing a gaslighter. And I think that the most foundational place for us to start is with the very fundamental question of what is gaslighting?

 

Lisa:

So gaslighting essentially is when the person tries to confuse the other person in such a way that that person actually begins to mistrust their own views, feelings, the certainties that are as common as whether the heat is on or off, whether the temperature is where it was when you walked into a room, whether the lights are dimmed, or are they actually bright. It is basically a structure of confusion based upon emotional abuse to the victim.

 

Marcy:

So what you’re describing really sounds like it messes with the victims reality as they know it.

 

Lisa:

It does it exactly, it messes with their reality; it destabilizes them, they begin to mistrust themselves. They begin to mistrust their stability and their own self-worth, their own ability to analyze something, to parent, to be a spouse, to be out in the world saying anything at all as a matter of fact, and it becomes very difficult for them to function.

 

Marcy:

So how do you know that you’re in this situation? And what are some of the key signs that somebody would recognize? Because I imagine if you’re in this situation, you probably don’t even realize that after a matter of time, like maybe at first you’re like, oh, that doesn’t seem right. But then, as time goes on, you probably lose your ability to even recognize the situation that you’re in.

 

Lisa:

Well, hopefully, as time goes on, you actually start to understand the situation that you’re in. I mean, that is the goal for the victim is to understand the situation that they’re in, and then to make sense of it, and to alert perhaps a therapist or someone in their lives that this is happening, who is a trusted adviser or trusted friend. But you’re correct that sometimes at the beginning, they don’t know that this is going on, and it becomes concerning to them and worrisome to them and then they are, as I said, questioning their own self-esteem, self-worth, and their ability to function.

 

Marcy:

And so what are some of the key signs that would mark a gaslighter?

 

Lisa:

So a gaslighter is someone who begins to tell you that you’re crazy; they begin to accuse you, essentially, of not understanding what’s going on around you. So for example, you know, the lights are dim, but the gaslighter is saying that they’re really bright, or the temperature was always 68 degrees. And you know, you always leave it at 68 degrees, but now it’s 86 degrees all of a sudden, and the gaslighter is telling you you’re the one who changed it. When you know perfectly well, you didn’t change it. The gaslighter might tell you, for example, that the TV has been on all day when you know the TV has actually not been on all day. And now with all of the technology and controls that a gaslighter can use, it becomes even more difficult to navigate the gaslighter. But essentially he or she is telling you, you’re crazy.

 

Marcy:

And what’s their motivation? Is it to define another person’s reality? Is it to control the other person? What are they trying to accomplish with these behaviors?

 

Lisa:

So I think they’re trying to confuse, they’re trying to destabilize, to make you feel less confident, make you feel like you can’t trust yourself, make you feel that you are less worthy. And then the ultimate is to make you question whether anything you believe is really true. So in my field, which is matrimonial and family law, the goal is to destabilize someone to the point where they can’t really function. And they can’t then communicate with their attorneys. They can’t communicate with their therapists, it’s to essentially cut them off from their own realities and to essentially get them to see things the way that the other person, the gaslighter is seeing them. And when I say that the goal is to to make them feel so inadequate, so crazy, essentially so confused that they themselves don’t believe themselves, and they can’t get anyone else to believe them either, which means that if they say that there is money, you know what that is located in such and such place, nobody’s going to believe them and maybe they stopped believing it or that they’ve always taken the children to the doctor, and that they understand what their children’s needs are. Maybe they stop and they become so confused that they stop believing what their own children’s needs are. So it’s to confuse, destabilize, and then take control of.

 

Marcy:

Okay, so now that we understand and we’ve sort of described the temperature of the water, we’ve got to try to help pull somebody out of the water. And you know, divorce is hard enough, right? I mean, if you’re well adjusted, and emotionally stable, divorce is hard. I can only imagine the additional layers. And obviously, I’ve had cases involving these types of situations too, that, you’re dealing with a whole other level of emotional abuse, because it’s very sophisticated in an odd way. And on the one hand, it seems really simple, but it’s actually very, very sophisticated. So what hope can we give to people who find themselves in this situation? And what are some of the practical steps that they can take to get themselves to a better place?

 

Lisa:

So I think first they need to find people in their lives that they can trust. And they need to find a trusted therapist and a trusted attorney that they can work with, so that they can essentially have a support system that’s going to have their back, somebody that they can rely on, to ensure that someone’s advocating for them. They need to make sure that they also, before they file for a divorce, unless they are in some sort of danger that they get these people in place so that they have their team, essentially, they want to have a team that’s strong, and that can be their backbone. And then they should start documenting the behavior. That would be important and to keep some sort of a calendar, documenting exactly what the behavior has been, and any evidence of the behavior. So pictures, photographs, tape recordings of conversations that they may be having with their spouse, and keeping in mind that in certain jurisdictions, you can do that in certain jurisdictions, you cannot do that. So in New York, where we are, it’s one-party consent and you can actually if you’re both in that room together, you can actually have that tape recording of you and your spouse, and then sharing that documentation with your attorney and your therapist and possibly the court if necessary.

 

Marcy:

So let’s stop there for a second. So they’re keeping track of the instances. They’ve got pictures. They’re documenting their experience, help our listeners understand how that becomes relevant in litigation. So in Michigan, for example, we’re dealing with multi-factor tests when it comes to issues of custody and parenting time and division of assets. And, you know, maybe perhaps these types of factors would factor into an equitable division of property, or it may factor into some of the factors that the Michigan statutes look at when they consider what custody and parenting time should look like. So in your experience, and in your part of the world, how does this evidence help a client in court when these matters actually get litigated?

 

Lisa:

Well, first of all, in custody, one of the key factors that we look at in New York State, and I would imagine many other states, is an ability for a parent to foster a relationship with the other parent. So, essentially, if you’re trying to drive the other parent crazy, you’re certainly not going to be fostering a relationship. Because driving the parent crazy or making the parent feel that they’re crazy, or destabilizing them is not fostering a relationship with the children and the parent. So that would be very, very important in terms of custody issues. In terms of financial issues, I think it’s important because this person is going to be in court and this person has to feel calm and able to testify or speak on his or her own behalf. And it’s important that they feel confident in doing that. Abuse can certainly be a factor and emotional abuse can also be a factor. And so for someone who may have had this happen over a period of time, it may be that alimony for a longer period of time might be necessary because this person may need to get themselves back on their feet, essentially, after they’ve been so difficult. So we can actually play a part in issues of alimony and maybe to some degree equitable distribution. Because, you know, again, location of assets, understanding what the assets are, you know, if you have to find your assets, locate them, and you’ve been so destabilized, that’s going to be more difficult. And so legal fees will escalate or certainly become greater during that time. These are all factors that the court has to consider in awarding legal fees, for example, which, you know, in New York State, divorce is expensive.

And so if someone is playing these mind games, essentially, that may play into what which person is going to be paying for which person’s legal fees.

 

Marcy:

Absolutely. And so the other thing that I’ve seen is it’s not just about how the parents are treating each other but some of these behaviors can also impact how that parent is interacting with the kids. And there can be some really unhealthy patterns and other relational issues that developed between the parents and the kids. So I don’t know if you can talk a little bit about that.

Certainly the court would be interested in the parent’s ability because one of our factors is, you know, your ability to have a meaningful relationship with the kids and your ability or your current state of mental and emotional health. Obviously, this impacts if you’re, if you’re treating your soon to be ex-spouse this way, how are we going to protect the kids and how are they not going to be impacted by these behaviors also?

 

Lisa:

Absolutely. And you know, in New York, most people live in the same house or apartment during their divorce. And if this is going on in front of the children, and these mind games are being played in front of the children, and mom or dad is being made out to be essentially crazy. And mom or dad is being questioned about everything in such a way that it’s destabilizing you in front of the children and undermining their ability to parent the children. That is something a court is going to look at, because it’s almost a diabolical methodology of how to deal with the parent of your children. That’s a very serious situation.

Marcy:

No question. So have you had a situation where you’ve been advocating on behalf of the victim of a gaslighter, but the court has sort of looked at your client and said, ‘well, you lack the ability to foster a healthy relationship because all you’re doing is spending all your time saying that the other parent is the nightmare?’ Can that backfire?

 

Lisa:

So are you asking me if the victim is being questioned as to whether that victim is fit to parent?

 

Marcy:

Exactly or because in a sense, because the victim is spending so much time describing right because we’ve advised them. Now that you should think about documenting all this stuff about, you know how terrible the treatment has been, might the court look at that and say, Well, okay, victim, but you’re spending all your time saying what a terrible person this other parent is, you’re not going to be able to foster a healthy relationship with the kids either.

 

Lisa:

So I think that there’s a very big difference between spending your time and spending all your time. First of all, and spending the time that’s necessary to document, so that’s the first thing I would say. Essentially, you always need to voice your concerns. You never want to basically bad mouth or disparage the other parent because again, your children come from both of you. Your children are a product of both parents. But, and I always give this example, you need to describe what is happening. So for example, I always say to my clients, it’s fall. But you don’t need to tell somebody it’s fall outside, you need to actually tell them that the leaves are crunchy under their feet, that the leaves are falling that they’re bright yellow, red and green, that you describe fall. So it is important to have these facts. And I’m not saying that this should be a main or only focus on parenting and your custody case. But it certainly is a concern. And it certainly needs to be raised into focus on the facts to focus on the objective evidence.

 

So getting back to keeping the list… it’s so important that it not be full of drama and like Oh, he made me so sad and he made me this he made me that no or she made me that she made me that no, it’s like it was 85 degrees. And he kept saying it’s 60 exactly that’s exactly correct. And and that’s so important in every part of your matrimonial and family law matter is to make sure that you’re keeping it factual, that you’re not giving the conclusion, that you’re not providing the conclusion. But essentially, you’re providing the facts… the court will draw its own conclusion. They’re not looking to you for a conclusion. And that’s the same. If someone is going through a forensic study, for example, in terms of custody, sometimes our clients go through psychological forensic studies, where they will be speaking to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. And we always explain to them that they need to really be describing the facts of what is happening as opposed to drawing the conclusion themselves.

 

 

Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of the interview about dealing with a gaslighter with Lisa Zeiderman.

 

 Marcy:

So let’s stop there for a second. So they’re keeping track of the instances. They’ve got pictures. They’re documenting their experience, help our listeners understand how that becomes relevant in litigation. So in Michigan, for example, we’re dealing with multi-factor tests when it comes to issues of custody and parenting time and division of assets. And, you know, maybe perhaps these types of factors would factor into an equitable division of property, or it may factor into some of the factors that the Michigan statutes look at when they consider what custody and parenting time should look like. So in your experience, and in your part of the world, how does this evidence help a client in court when these matters actually get litigated?

 

Lisa:

Well, first of all, in custody, one of the key factors that we look at in New York State, and I would imagine many other states, is an ability for a parent to foster a relationship with the other parent. So, essentially, if you’re trying to drive the other parent crazy, you’re certainly not going to be fostering a relationship. Because driving the parent crazy or making the parent feel that they’re crazy, or destabilizing them is not fostering a relationship with the children and the parent. So that would be very, very important in terms of custody issues. In terms of financial issues, I think it’s important because this person is going to be in court and this person has to feel calm and able to testify or speak on his or her own behalf. And it’s important that they feel confident in doing that. Abuse can certainly be a factor and emotional abuse can also be a factor. And so for someone who may have had this happen over a period of time, it may be that alimony for a longer period of time might be necessary because this person may need to get themselves back on their feet, essentially, after they’ve been so difficult. So we can actually play a part in issues of alimony and maybe to some degree equitable distribution. Because, you know, again, location of assets, understanding what the assets are, you know, if you have to find your assets, locate them, and you’ve been so destabilized, that’s going to be more difficult. And so legal fees will escalate or certainly become greater during that time. These are all factors that the court has to consider in awarding legal fees, for example, which, you know, in New York State, divorce is expensive.

And so if someone is playing these mind games, essentially, that may play into what which person is going to be paying for which person’s legal fees.

 

Marcy:

Absolutely. And so the other thing that I’ve seen is it’s not just about how the parents are treating each other but some of these behaviors can also impact how that parent is interacting with the kids. And there can be some really unhealthy patterns and other relational issues that developed between the parents and the kids. So I don’t know if you can talk a little bit about that.

Certainly the court would be interested in the parent’s ability because one of our factors is, you know, your ability to have a meaningful relationship with the kids and your ability or your current state of mental and emotional health. Obviously, this impacts if you’re, if you’re treating your soon to be ex-spouse this way, how are we going to protect the kids and how are they not going to be impacted by these behaviors also?

 

Lisa:

Absolutely. And you know, in New York, most people live in the same house or apartment during their divorce. And if this is going on in front of the children, and these mind games are being played in front of the children, and mom or dad is being made out to be essentially crazy. And mom or dad is being questioned about everything in such a way that it’s destabilizing you in front of the children and undermining their ability to parent the children. That is something a court is going to look at, because it’s almost a diabolical methodology of how to deal with the parent of your children. That’s a very serious situation.

 

Marcy:

No question. So have you had a situation where you’ve been advocating on behalf of the victim of a gaslighter, but the court has sort of looked at your client and said, ‘well, you lack the ability to foster a healthy relationship because all you’re doing is spending all your time saying that the other parent is the nightmare?’ Can that backfire?

 

Lisa:

So are you asking me if the victim is being questioned as to whether that victim is fit to parent?

 

Marcy:

Exactly or because in a sense, because the victim is spending so much time describing right because we’ve advised them. Now that you should think about documenting all this stuff about, you know how terrible the treatment has been, might the court look at that and say, Well, okay, victim, but you’re spending all your time saying what a terrible person this other parent is, you’re not going to be able to foster a healthy relationship with the kids either.

 

Lisa:

So I think that there’s a very big difference between spending your time and spending all your time. First of all, and spending the time that’s necessary to document, so that’s the first thing I would say. Essentially, you always need to voice your concerns. You never want to basically bad mouth or disparage the other parent because again, your children come from both of you. Your children are a product of both parents. But, and I always give this example, you need to describe what is happening. So for example, I always say to my clients, it’s fall. But you don’t need to tell somebody it’s fall outside, you need to actually tell them that the leaves are crunchy under their feet, that the leaves are falling that they’re bright yellow, red and green, that you describe fall. So it is important to have these facts. And I’m not saying that this should be a main or only focus on parenting and your custody case. But it certainly is a concern. And it certainly needs to be raised into focus on the facts to focus on the objective evidence.

 

So getting back to keeping the list… it’s so important that it not be full of drama and like Oh, he made me so sad and he made me this he made me that no or she made me that she made me that no, it’s like it was 85 degrees. And he kept saying it’s 60 exactly that’s exactly correct. And and that’s so important in every part of your matrimonial and family law matter is to make sure that you’re keeping it factual, that you’re not giving the conclusion, that you’re not providing the conclusion. But essentially, you’re providing the facts… the court will draw its own conclusion. They’re not looking to you for a conclusion. And that’s the same. If someone is going through a forensic study, for example, in terms of custody, sometimes our clients go through psychological forensic studies, where they will be speaking to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. And we always explain to them that they need to really be describing the facts of what is happening as opposed to drawing the conclusion themselves.

 

 

Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of the interview about dealing with a gaslighter with Lisa Zeiderman.

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