The post Ep 26: What is Nesting & Could It Be the Answer For Your Family? Dr. Ann Buscho Explains this Child-Centered Approach to Co-Parenting During Divorce appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
A licensed clinical psychologist, Dr. Ann Buscho, joins the show to share her expertise on family issues related to divorce, parenting, parenting planning, and co-parenting counseling. So, what is nesting and how does it work? Nesting is a practice where kids remain in the family home, while parents rotate on and off duty according to a schedule that is tailored specifically to the family’s needs. This practice helps children and families navigate divorce in a way that is minimally disruptive to the children. Dr. Buscho has personally practiced nesting during her own divorce and uses that experience, along with three decades as a therapist for divorcing families, to advise and guide families through this transformative process. In addition to having her own practice in the San Francisco Bay Area, Dr. Buscho has presented at state and national conferences for attorneys, mental health professionals, and financial professionals on collaborative divorce, nesting during divorce, and consensual dispute resolution. Dr. Buscho regularly contributes to a popular divorce blog on Psychology Today, and also recently published a new book, The Parent’s Guide to Birdnesting: A Child-Centered Solution to Co-Parenting During Separation and Divorce. Learn more about Dr. Buscho, her practice, and publications, by visiting https://drannbuscho.com/
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Co-Parenting During Separation and Divorce
Marcy:
Welcome, Dr. Buscho.
Dr. Buscho:
Thank you for having me. I’m glad to be here.
Marcy:
So tell us a little bit about your new book. What is bird nesting?
Dr. Buscho:
It’s a great question. For me, I’m passionate about taking the stress out of the children’s experience of divorce. So nesting means the kids stay in the family home, while parents rotate on and off duty according to a schedule that they’ve developed that’s tailored specifically to their family’s needs. So the word comes from the birds nesting. When birds fly in and out, they take turns coming back to the nest to feed their children and to make sure that the babies are safe and secure. So in nesting in families, now, the kids routine stay the same and their lives are minimally disruptive. And there are a lot of different nesting arrangements that can work. And during COVID families are nesting within the home, not necessarily by choice. And so one of the things I try to do is to help them create nesting arrangements during COVID.
Marcy:
That’s a really creative idea. I can see where it might also help families save financial resources. Where does the other parent go when the parent who’s in charge of the kids is at home? Do they rent an apartment or something where they both stay or how does that work?
Dr. Buscho:
Well, there are many different ways, and it does depend to some degree on their relationship, on the condition or size of their home, and on their finances because finances are definitely a factor during COVID. Many families are separating the bedrooms and creating an on duty off duty schedule so they don’t actually have to rent an offsite living situation. Some people can sleep on a fold-out sofa in their office or go to friends or relatives. Sometimes parents will share an offsite apartment, depending on whether they can do that amicably. Sometimes, if they can afford it, they might rent two offsite apartments. There was a sitcom on ABC that ended last year called Splitting Up Together. And in that sitcom, they converted the garage into a small apartment. And the parents took turns, being on duty with the children and when they were off duty, they went out to the garage. It was a pretty nice garage, but it was a garage. So I wrote this guidebook, because I want parents to succeed at nesting. And there are so many ways that they can do it successfully. And there are also quite a few ways they can fail. And so I want to help parents set aside their emotions to prioritize the kids, and then create a very structured, detailed, clear agreement that’s documented about how to do their nesting arrangement.
Marcy:
Well, I imagine that strong boundaries would be really important here because they both need to respect the other’s parenting time, but also respect each other’s privacy within the confines of a home that they used to share without boundaries. So how can you talk a little bit about some of the tools that you recommend, or the tips that you would recommend for making that go smoothly?
Dr. Buscho:
Yes, privacy is a big concern. And so in during COVID, the families that I’ve been working with as they’ve separated into different bedrooms, they’ve sometimes had to move kids around or convert a room into a bedroom, and they have to respect that they each have private space, and when they’re off duty that that space is their space. And so nothing can be taken from the room. They view it as separate, private, sacred space for each parent. When they’re still living in the same home and trying to nest, it can get a little more confusing.
First of all, the kids know that the other parent is in the home, and sometimes they’ll want to go to that parent, even when they’re off duty. So that’s something that the parents need to discuss, how are they going to handle that? There’s an issue of when people are in the kitchen and whether they dinner together or not, do they have to have such complete separation that they literally schedule kitchen time. Most of the people that I’m working with don’t do that. When they’re sharing the home during COVID, they’re able to, at least most nights, have dinner together as a family, which of course is better for the kids. They have to think through every aspect of sharing a home from whether they leave dishes in the sink when they go off duty and they also need to be able to transition smoothly. That means bringing the other parent up to date about the kids before they come on duty.
Marcy:
So you mentioned that this is a temporary arrangement. I mean, obviously people are looking to be permanently separated. How long does an arrangement like this typically lasts? Are we talking six months? Are we talking 18 months? How long do people find themselves in the situation?
Dr. Buscho:
So, when I was divorced or separating way back 27 years ago, we nested for 15 months, and we nested until our divorce was complete. That was the milestone that we used. The main reason we stopped was that my ex-husband had a new relationship that he wanted to move into the home. People will nest for short-term or long term. I interviewed a family of five that nested for six and a half years, and I interviewed both parents and all three adult children now. And they nested for six and a half years in order to carry the burden of the divorce so their kids didn’t have to.
Marcy:
Wow. So the divorce was final, but they chose to continue the nesting.
Dr. Buscho:
That’s right. That’s right. And people will identify milestones like a graduation from high school, or that the house needs to be sold, or there’s a new relationship. So there are a lot of times it’s open-ended when they start, but they have to keep communicating with each other. If one of them starts to want to bring it to an end, they can’t just blindside the other parent with that. They need to work out a smooth transition to two homes if that’s the way they go. Some people who nest actually reconcile and the nesting has given them a break and they can work on their marriage and then you know there are steps to reconciliation that I also talked about in the book.
Marcy:
How do you know this is a potential solution for a family? Are there certain characteristics of the relationship that you look to? And you think, Oh, this would be perfect for nesting. Whereas if you have other factors like domestic violence or something else, you’d think, Okay, this really isn’t an option. How do you decide whether it’s right for a family?
Dr. Buscho:
Well, there are a number of different factors. And in the book, there’s actually a self-assessment questionnaire that I encourage parents to take and look for areas where they agree and don’t agree, and their questions like I respect my parents, my spouse’s parenting style, or I don’t worry about my children when they’re with my spouse or maybe like we have terrible arguments when we drink that would be a red flag question.
So the red flag questions are going to be things about abuse, addiction, neglect, mental illness, that sort of thing. I believe that if parents can set aside their own emotions and prioritize the children, that is the biggest first step. If they’re able to do that, then the next question is, are they able to work out agreements? Are they able to keep the agreements that they work out? Because making and keeping agreements will build trust and respect between them. It’ll strengthen the co-parenting relationship, it’s really important. So if they can’t keep an agreement, if there’s been neglect or abuse or an untreated addiction or mental illness, then that’s not going to be the best option for them. The other I think requirement is that both parents want to be actively involved in parenting. If one parent is traveling a lot for work and career really is the most important thing to him, then nesting may not be the best arrangement for them. Both parents need to want to be involved.
Marcy:
Yeah, for sure. Let me ask you a like a really practical question. So I have a 14 year old and a 12 year old, and we’re divorced. And we’ve been divorced for almost 10 years. And one of the things that we don’t always see eye to eye on are consequences for the kid’s behavior. So whatever it is, we try to be consistent at the two households, but we just fundamentally differ in our philosophy about punishment and consequences, etc. How does it work if you’re nesting for six years after you get divorced, and you know, you’ve got one child who’s just not following rules? How are you able to reconcile some of these philosophical parenting differences, if everybody’s still in the same space?
Dr. Buscho:
Yeah, it’s a good question because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a marriage where both parents have the same parenting style. And it’s so common for one parent to be more lenient or permissive and another parent to be more authoritative or authoritarian, even. So that’s pretty typical. The primary goal of nesting is to end the conflict. And so whatever it takes to end the conflict is what you do. So, if, in order to end the conflict, there needs to be a firewall between the parents, that’s the extreme. That means that the parents do their own parenting in their own way, and they probably won’t agree about discipline or they won’t agree about screentime or bedtime, or meals. If that’s what it takes to keep conflict away from the children, then it’s actually not a bad solution. Ideally, people are more at the other end of that of a continuum more toward co-parenting where there’s more communication. There’s more negotiating. There’s more problem solving and coming to agreements. But there are times when there’s just not going to be an agreement about things like consequences. And I guess, if you can’t come to an agreement, it’s a question of picking your battles, you know? And I also think you can explain to the kids that, you know, mom does things differently than dad. And that’s something that the child will eventually have to learn to understand and accept.
Marcy:
So at what point, though, are the differences in philosophy so different that it’s a couple that just shouldn’t nest? How do you draw the line?
Dr. Buscho:
If they can’t manage the conflict. That’s really the bottom line. Because I do think that people can do this parallel parenting, that’s the firewall idea. If they can do that and end the conflict, then they can nest. The question is if they cannot end the conflict, and there’s so much stress and tension between them that the children are absorbing, then nesting is not a good idea.
Marcy:
So have you ever seen a nesting situation fall apart where a couple decided, Okay, we’re going to do this and then for whatever reason it didn’t work out and what lessons, if you have experienced that, could you share?
Dr. Buscho:
That’s why I wrote the book. I’ve learned a lot from my own experience and also from the experience of many, many clients. Nesting has failed for a huge number of reasons. Whether it’s, you know, issues like coming into the home and the place is trashed, there are dirty dishes, there’s no food in the refrigerator. The linens haven’t been changed, you know, and they can’t work that out… that could end nesting because people get so angry about that.
The worst one was when The mother came back into the home and found a used condom in the bedroom. Oh, and that was bad that ended the next day. What all of these told me is that you have to have very specific agreements about things like not bringing in dates into the home, about what condition you’re going to leave the home in when you leave, about how you’ll communicate with each other about the children especially if problems come up. About how the nesting will be funded and and what’s okay to purchase and what’s not okay to purchase. And having a very clear schedule about holidays, birthdays and sort of regular days, the default days, if people can make those kinds of very detailed agreements and anticipate as many issues as possible, and if they can keep those agreements, the nesting is going to succeed. But you can’t predict everything that’s going to come up. So they also have to agree that if something comes up that they haven’t worked out an agreement around that they will, and if they need help doing that, they will sit down with somebody to help them problem-solve around a new agreement.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my amazingly informative interview with Dr. Ann Buscho.
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The post Ep 26: What is Nesting & Could It Be the Answer For Your Family? Dr. Ann Buscho Explains this Child-Centered Approach to Co-Parenting During Divorce appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 25: How to Divorce a Gaslighter: Special Guest Interview with Matrimonial Attorney & Divorce Law Expert Lisa Zeiderman appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
Lisa Zeiderman joins the podcast to share her insight and expertise, as a Matrimonial Attorney and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, on what it is like to divorce a gaslighter. Lisa is a Managing Partner at Miller, Zeiderman & Wiederkehr LLP, and regularly handles complex financial and custody divorce matters for high-net-worth individuals. In 2019, she was named one of the ’10 Best Family Law Attorneys for Client Satisfaction’ by the American Institute of Family Law Attorneys. Now, you may be wondering, “What exactly is gaslighting?”. Gaslighting is among the most subtle yet damaging forms of emotional abuse. It is a strategy deployed by those who seek to control others’ behavior and/or obscure their own behavior. In this episode, Marcy and Lisa discuss how some individuals use lying in the service of manipulation and control; it is an ongoing issue in some marriages or divorces where one spouse may be diagnosed as a narcissist or may suffer from other mental health disorders. A gaslighter’s goal is to destabilize the other person to the point where the victim questions his/her mental stability and diminishes his/her self-confidence and self-esteem. Learn more about Lisa and her work at https://mzwnylaw.com
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Matrimonial Attorney & Divorce Law
Marcy:
Lisa, thank you for joining us.
Lisa:
Thanks so much for having me. I’m so thrilled to be doing this with you, Marcy.
Marcy:
Awesome. Well, today we have a very, very compelling topic, and that is on divorcing a gaslighter. And I think that the most foundational place for us to start is with the very fundamental question of what is gaslighting?
Lisa:
So gaslighting essentially is when the person tries to confuse the other person in such a way that that person actually begins to mistrust their own views, feelings, the certainties that are as common as whether the heat is on or off, whether the temperature is where it was when you walked into a room, whether the lights are dimmed, or are they actually bright. It is basically a structure of confusion based upon emotional abuse to the victim.
Marcy:
So what you’re describing really sounds like it messes with the victims reality as they know it.
Lisa:
It does it exactly, it messes with their reality; it destabilizes them, they begin to mistrust themselves. They begin to mistrust their stability and their own self-worth, their own ability to analyze something, to parent, to be a spouse, to be out in the world saying anything at all as a matter of fact, and it becomes very difficult for them to function.
Marcy:
So how do you know that you’re in this situation? And what are some of the key signs that somebody would recognize? Because I imagine if you’re in this situation, you probably don’t even realize that after a matter of time, like maybe at first you’re like, oh, that doesn’t seem right. But then, as time goes on, you probably lose your ability to even recognize the situation that you’re in.
Lisa:
Well, hopefully, as time goes on, you actually start to understand the situation that you’re in. I mean, that is the goal for the victim is to understand the situation that they’re in, and then to make sense of it, and to alert perhaps a therapist or someone in their lives that this is happening, who is a trusted adviser or trusted friend. But you’re correct that sometimes at the beginning, they don’t know that this is going on, and it becomes concerning to them and worrisome to them and then they are, as I said, questioning their own self-esteem, self-worth, and their ability to function.
Marcy:
And so what are some of the key signs that would mark a gaslighter?
Lisa:
So a gaslighter is someone who begins to tell you that you’re crazy; they begin to accuse you, essentially, of not understanding what’s going on around you. So for example, you know, the lights are dim, but the gaslighter is saying that they’re really bright, or the temperature was always 68 degrees. And you know, you always leave it at 68 degrees, but now it’s 86 degrees all of a sudden, and the gaslighter is telling you you’re the one who changed it. When you know perfectly well, you didn’t change it. The gaslighter might tell you, for example, that the TV has been on all day when you know the TV has actually not been on all day. And now with all of the technology and controls that a gaslighter can use, it becomes even more difficult to navigate the gaslighter. But essentially he or she is telling you, you’re crazy.
Marcy:
And what’s their motivation? Is it to define another person’s reality? Is it to control the other person? What are they trying to accomplish with these behaviors?
Lisa:
So I think they’re trying to confuse, they’re trying to destabilize, to make you feel less confident, make you feel like you can’t trust yourself, make you feel that you are less worthy. And then the ultimate is to make you question whether anything you believe is really true. So in my field, which is matrimonial and family law, the goal is to destabilize someone to the point where they can’t really function. And they can’t then communicate with their attorneys. They can’t communicate with their therapists, it’s to essentially cut them off from their own realities and to essentially get them to see things the way that the other person, the gaslighter is seeing them. And when I say that the goal is to to make them feel so inadequate, so crazy, essentially so confused that they themselves don’t believe themselves, and they can’t get anyone else to believe them either, which means that if they say that there is money, you know what that is located in such and such place, nobody’s going to believe them and maybe they stopped believing it or that they’ve always taken the children to the doctor, and that they understand what their children’s needs are. Maybe they stop and they become so confused that they stop believing what their own children’s needs are. So it’s to confuse, destabilize, and then take control of.
Marcy:
Okay, so now that we understand and we’ve sort of described the temperature of the water, we’ve got to try to help pull somebody out of the water. And you know, divorce is hard enough, right? I mean, if you’re well adjusted, and emotionally stable, divorce is hard. I can only imagine the additional layers. And obviously, I’ve had cases involving these types of situations too, that, you’re dealing with a whole other level of emotional abuse, because it’s very sophisticated in an odd way. And on the one hand, it seems really simple, but it’s actually very, very sophisticated. So what hope can we give to people who find themselves in this situation? And what are some of the practical steps that they can take to get themselves to a better place?
Lisa:
So I think first they need to find people in their lives that they can trust. And they need to find a trusted therapist and a trusted attorney that they can work with, so that they can essentially have a support system that’s going to have their back, somebody that they can rely on, to ensure that someone’s advocating for them. They need to make sure that they also, before they file for a divorce, unless they are in some sort of danger that they get these people in place so that they have their team, essentially, they want to have a team that’s strong, and that can be their backbone. And then they should start documenting the behavior. That would be important and to keep some sort of a calendar, documenting exactly what the behavior has been, and any evidence of the behavior. So pictures, photographs, tape recordings of conversations that they may be having with their spouse, and keeping in mind that in certain jurisdictions, you can do that in certain jurisdictions, you cannot do that. So in New York, where we are, it’s one-party consent and you can actually if you’re both in that room together, you can actually have that tape recording of you and your spouse, and then sharing that documentation with your attorney and your therapist and possibly the court if necessary.
Marcy:
So let’s stop there for a second. So they’re keeping track of the instances. They’ve got pictures. They’re documenting their experience, help our listeners understand how that becomes relevant in litigation. So in Michigan, for example, we’re dealing with multi-factor tests when it comes to issues of custody and parenting time and division of assets. And, you know, maybe perhaps these types of factors would factor into an equitable division of property, or it may factor into some of the factors that the Michigan statutes look at when they consider what custody and parenting time should look like. So in your experience, and in your part of the world, how does this evidence help a client in court when these matters actually get litigated?
Lisa:
Well, first of all, in custody, one of the key factors that we look at in New York State, and I would imagine many other states, is an ability for a parent to foster a relationship with the other parent. So, essentially, if you’re trying to drive the other parent crazy, you’re certainly not going to be fostering a relationship. Because driving the parent crazy or making the parent feel that they’re crazy, or destabilizing them is not fostering a relationship with the children and the parent. So that would be very, very important in terms of custody issues. In terms of financial issues, I think it’s important because this person is going to be in court and this person has to feel calm and able to testify or speak on his or her own behalf. And it’s important that they feel confident in doing that. Abuse can certainly be a factor and emotional abuse can also be a factor. And so for someone who may have had this happen over a period of time, it may be that alimony for a longer period of time might be necessary because this person may need to get themselves back on their feet, essentially, after they’ve been so difficult. So we can actually play a part in issues of alimony and maybe to some degree equitable distribution. Because, you know, again, location of assets, understanding what the assets are, you know, if you have to find your assets, locate them, and you’ve been so destabilized, that’s going to be more difficult. And so legal fees will escalate or certainly become greater during that time. These are all factors that the court has to consider in awarding legal fees, for example, which, you know, in New York State, divorce is expensive.
And so if someone is playing these mind games, essentially, that may play into what which person is going to be paying for which person’s legal fees.
Marcy:
Absolutely. And so the other thing that I’ve seen is it’s not just about how the parents are treating each other but some of these behaviors can also impact how that parent is interacting with the kids. And there can be some really unhealthy patterns and other relational issues that developed between the parents and the kids. So I don’t know if you can talk a little bit about that.
Certainly the court would be interested in the parent’s ability because one of our factors is, you know, your ability to have a meaningful relationship with the kids and your ability or your current state of mental and emotional health. Obviously, this impacts if you’re, if you’re treating your soon to be ex-spouse this way, how are we going to protect the kids and how are they not going to be impacted by these behaviors also?
Lisa:
Absolutely. And you know, in New York, most people live in the same house or apartment during their divorce. And if this is going on in front of the children, and these mind games are being played in front of the children, and mom or dad is being made out to be essentially crazy. And mom or dad is being questioned about everything in such a way that it’s destabilizing you in front of the children and undermining their ability to parent the children. That is something a court is going to look at, because it’s almost a diabolical methodology of how to deal with the parent of your children. That’s a very serious situation.
Marcy:
No question. So have you had a situation where you’ve been advocating on behalf of the victim of a gaslighter, but the court has sort of looked at your client and said, ‘well, you lack the ability to foster a healthy relationship because all you’re doing is spending all your time saying that the other parent is the nightmare?’ Can that backfire?
Lisa:
So are you asking me if the victim is being questioned as to whether that victim is fit to parent?
Marcy:
Exactly or because in a sense, because the victim is spending so much time describing right because we’ve advised them. Now that you should think about documenting all this stuff about, you know how terrible the treatment has been, might the court look at that and say, Well, okay, victim, but you’re spending all your time saying what a terrible person this other parent is, you’re not going to be able to foster a healthy relationship with the kids either.
Lisa:
So I think that there’s a very big difference between spending your time and spending all your time. First of all, and spending the time that’s necessary to document, so that’s the first thing I would say. Essentially, you always need to voice your concerns. You never want to basically bad mouth or disparage the other parent because again, your children come from both of you. Your children are a product of both parents. But, and I always give this example, you need to describe what is happening. So for example, I always say to my clients, it’s fall. But you don’t need to tell somebody it’s fall outside, you need to actually tell them that the leaves are crunchy under their feet, that the leaves are falling that they’re bright yellow, red and green, that you describe fall. So it is important to have these facts. And I’m not saying that this should be a main or only focus on parenting and your custody case. But it certainly is a concern. And it certainly needs to be raised into focus on the facts to focus on the objective evidence.
So getting back to keeping the list… it’s so important that it not be full of drama and like Oh, he made me so sad and he made me this he made me that no or she made me that she made me that no, it’s like it was 85 degrees. And he kept saying it’s 60 exactly that’s exactly correct. And and that’s so important in every part of your matrimonial and family law matter is to make sure that you’re keeping it factual, that you’re not giving the conclusion, that you’re not providing the conclusion. But essentially, you’re providing the facts… the court will draw its own conclusion. They’re not looking to you for a conclusion. And that’s the same. If someone is going through a forensic study, for example, in terms of custody, sometimes our clients go through psychological forensic studies, where they will be speaking to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. And we always explain to them that they need to really be describing the facts of what is happening as opposed to drawing the conclusion themselves.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of the interview about dealing with a gaslighter with Lisa Zeiderman.
Marcy:
So let’s stop there for a second. So they’re keeping track of the instances. They’ve got pictures. They’re documenting their experience, help our listeners understand how that becomes relevant in litigation. So in Michigan, for example, we’re dealing with multi-factor tests when it comes to issues of custody and parenting time and division of assets. And, you know, maybe perhaps these types of factors would factor into an equitable division of property, or it may factor into some of the factors that the Michigan statutes look at when they consider what custody and parenting time should look like. So in your experience, and in your part of the world, how does this evidence help a client in court when these matters actually get litigated?
Lisa:
Well, first of all, in custody, one of the key factors that we look at in New York State, and I would imagine many other states, is an ability for a parent to foster a relationship with the other parent. So, essentially, if you’re trying to drive the other parent crazy, you’re certainly not going to be fostering a relationship. Because driving the parent crazy or making the parent feel that they’re crazy, or destabilizing them is not fostering a relationship with the children and the parent. So that would be very, very important in terms of custody issues. In terms of financial issues, I think it’s important because this person is going to be in court and this person has to feel calm and able to testify or speak on his or her own behalf. And it’s important that they feel confident in doing that. Abuse can certainly be a factor and emotional abuse can also be a factor. And so for someone who may have had this happen over a period of time, it may be that alimony for a longer period of time might be necessary because this person may need to get themselves back on their feet, essentially, after they’ve been so difficult. So we can actually play a part in issues of alimony and maybe to some degree equitable distribution. Because, you know, again, location of assets, understanding what the assets are, you know, if you have to find your assets, locate them, and you’ve been so destabilized, that’s going to be more difficult. And so legal fees will escalate or certainly become greater during that time. These are all factors that the court has to consider in awarding legal fees, for example, which, you know, in New York State, divorce is expensive.
And so if someone is playing these mind games, essentially, that may play into what which person is going to be paying for which person’s legal fees.
Marcy:
Absolutely. And so the other thing that I’ve seen is it’s not just about how the parents are treating each other but some of these behaviors can also impact how that parent is interacting with the kids. And there can be some really unhealthy patterns and other relational issues that developed between the parents and the kids. So I don’t know if you can talk a little bit about that.
Certainly the court would be interested in the parent’s ability because one of our factors is, you know, your ability to have a meaningful relationship with the kids and your ability or your current state of mental and emotional health. Obviously, this impacts if you’re, if you’re treating your soon to be ex-spouse this way, how are we going to protect the kids and how are they not going to be impacted by these behaviors also?
Lisa:
Absolutely. And you know, in New York, most people live in the same house or apartment during their divorce. And if this is going on in front of the children, and these mind games are being played in front of the children, and mom or dad is being made out to be essentially crazy. And mom or dad is being questioned about everything in such a way that it’s destabilizing you in front of the children and undermining their ability to parent the children. That is something a court is going to look at, because it’s almost a diabolical methodology of how to deal with the parent of your children. That’s a very serious situation.
Marcy:
No question. So have you had a situation where you’ve been advocating on behalf of the victim of a gaslighter, but the court has sort of looked at your client and said, ‘well, you lack the ability to foster a healthy relationship because all you’re doing is spending all your time saying that the other parent is the nightmare?’ Can that backfire?
Lisa:
So are you asking me if the victim is being questioned as to whether that victim is fit to parent?
Marcy:
Exactly or because in a sense, because the victim is spending so much time describing right because we’ve advised them. Now that you should think about documenting all this stuff about, you know how terrible the treatment has been, might the court look at that and say, Well, okay, victim, but you’re spending all your time saying what a terrible person this other parent is, you’re not going to be able to foster a healthy relationship with the kids either.
Lisa:
So I think that there’s a very big difference between spending your time and spending all your time. First of all, and spending the time that’s necessary to document, so that’s the first thing I would say. Essentially, you always need to voice your concerns. You never want to basically bad mouth or disparage the other parent because again, your children come from both of you. Your children are a product of both parents. But, and I always give this example, you need to describe what is happening. So for example, I always say to my clients, it’s fall. But you don’t need to tell somebody it’s fall outside, you need to actually tell them that the leaves are crunchy under their feet, that the leaves are falling that they’re bright yellow, red and green, that you describe fall. So it is important to have these facts. And I’m not saying that this should be a main or only focus on parenting and your custody case. But it certainly is a concern. And it certainly needs to be raised into focus on the facts to focus on the objective evidence.
So getting back to keeping the list… it’s so important that it not be full of drama and like Oh, he made me so sad and he made me this he made me that no or she made me that she made me that no, it’s like it was 85 degrees. And he kept saying it’s 60 exactly that’s exactly correct. And and that’s so important in every part of your matrimonial and family law matter is to make sure that you’re keeping it factual, that you’re not giving the conclusion, that you’re not providing the conclusion. But essentially, you’re providing the facts… the court will draw its own conclusion. They’re not looking to you for a conclusion. And that’s the same. If someone is going through a forensic study, for example, in terms of custody, sometimes our clients go through psychological forensic studies, where they will be speaking to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. And we always explain to them that they need to really be describing the facts of what is happening as opposed to drawing the conclusion themselves.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of the interview about dealing with a gaslighter with Lisa Zeiderman.
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The post Ep 25: How to Divorce a Gaslighter: Special Guest Interview with Matrimonial Attorney & Divorce Law Expert Lisa Zeiderman appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 24: Exclusive Interview with Renowned Life Coach, Natasha Lindor Hahn & Our Grand Prize Winner Reveal! appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
This special episode features an exclusive interview with Natasha Lindor Hahn and the BIG announcement of the Grand Prize Winner of Marcy’s giveaway! If you tuned in when ‘Divorce What to Expect’ first went live, you heard about Marcy’s special giveaway of a wellness retreat in Honolulu, Hawaii, with renowned holistic, leadership and life coach, Natasha Lindor Hahn. Natasha is the founder of ‘The And Factor,’ a firm that partners with organizations with a sincere commitment to their employees’ well-being. The And Factor provides holistic executive and individual coaching, wellness retreats, experiential workshops, and transformational leadership training programs. Tune in to also hear the lucky winner of the once-in-a-lifetime retreat experience with Natasha herself!
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Family Law and Divorce
Marcy:
So I’m extremely excited to have Natasha here with us today. Hi, Natasha.
Natasha:
Hello, Aloha.
Marcy:
Aloha. And I just want to give our listeners a little bit of background about you first, before we get started, you have such a diverse and amazing background. And I’m so excited that we’re here today to talk about really how to stay grounded throughout the divorce process. Our listeners should know that you’re a first-generation American whose Haitian parents immigrated here for a better life essentially, and you were raised to really value top-notch education and relentless work ethic. This translated for you I know into degrees from both Northwestern and Washington University in St. Louis, followed by earning your professional accolades during three sales Hall of Fame awards, and induction into the Colgate Palmolive Circle of Excellence in your 20s; so I that’s just amazing. And then after your time in corporate America, 15 years climbing the corporate ladder, Natasha, she earned her professional coaching certification from a leading coach training program and founded her boutique firm The And Factor International. She got married and relocated from Chicago to O’ahu; thank you for doing that because it allows me to come and visit when we’re not in the middle of a pandemic.
During a time when there’s still you know, so much going on in the world and so much is up in the air. The And Factor International team really partners with organizations who have a sincere commitment to their employees; well being. The And Factor International hosts coaching, wellness retreats, experiential workshops, transformational leadership training programs, and inclusive change leadership solutions. They help professionals increase their level of resilience in areas such as leadership ability, communication, working relationships, and career life fulfillment. Natasha’s work in the divorce space includes coaching professionals to stay connected to inner peace while balancing a career and navigating the mental, emotional, and physical pains that are inherent in the divorce process. Whether she’s coaching professionals through life before, during or after divorce, Natasha is an energizing wave of positivity, stability and forward motion dedicated to equipping you with the confidence to create and enjoy personally fulfilling meaningful moments in the midst of chaos. And Natasha, I know that you have helped hundreds of professionals and individuals through a bunch of different types of crises to really live their best life. So by way of introduction, welcome to our show.
Natasha:
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
Marcy:
So let’s just start with a broad question. What advice do you give to somebody who is considering or going through a divorce? What are some of the tips and tricks that you can offer to help their journey be easier?
Natasha:
First, it is such a good question because ease is at the forefront of everything that I do. And what my intention for everyone that I work with is to come from a place of ease. So the first thing to do is to ask yourself what would make this process easier for me and depending upon where you are in the divorce process, the different dynamics that may be easier or harder to answer based on the emotional just kind of where you are emotionally. So what I find to be really helpful is to identify 1, 2, 3 feelings of how you want to feel in the process. So you might want to feel peaceful, you might want to feel calm, you might want to feel empowered, you know, whatever words come to mind that are grounded in your best version. Like if things turned out if you knew that everything could be okay, and you would come out the other side of this process, how do you want to feel?
So identifying that from the get-go, no matter where you are in the process can really help you to take the power for yourself to navigate the back and forth. That’s going to happen, you know, through this process. So that is one of the most essential tips and once you’ve decided that feeling that you want to have, then it’s like, Okay, what are some of the things that helped me have that feeling and it doesn’t have to be like complicated.
You know, sometimes we might think, Oh, I want to feel peaceful. Well, the time that I feel peaceful is when I’m on vacation. Well, that might not be realistic, especially these days since we’re recording during pandemic times, that you can’t necessarily get on a plane and go somewhere. So it’s what are the small things that create the sense of peace for me? Is that getting up and watching the sunset? You know, things that are really tangible, really grounded and not complicated, just things that are really simple, really easy to do, no matter how busy you are.
Marcy:
So that’s such a great, great tip. And one of the things, having been through my own divorce, I know that that sounds like a wonderful thing to do, and I wish that I had known you then because I would have certainly benefited from it. But it can be so overwhelming, what you’re feeling and what you’re dealing with when you’re going through a divorce or when you’re contemplating going through a divorce. How can someone stay focused on those three feelings that they’re visualizing? So I know you mentioned like maybe you watch the sunrise or the sunset or, you know, like some small thing that goes toward that. But are there any other tips for staying on that path so that it can almost be like a retreat in a moment of anxiety? Is there a mantra or something that would help somebody stay on that frequency?
Natasha:
Yes. So the most powerful frequency for moments of chaos is grounding yourself in love. So saying something to yourself anytime you’re feeling anxious or nervous or angry, you know, emotions that are sending you into a rabbit hole, say to yourself, “Because I love myself, I’m choosing to acknowledge I’m really pissed off about this issue. And it’s okay. And because I love myself, I am choosing to acknowledge that I wish this didn’t feel so hard. And I’m deciding to take a break for a minute or take a breath, take one deep breath.”
So it’s really those really simple things. So for listeners who identify with mantras, ‘because I love myself, fill in the blank’ is a really powerful one to keep you connected to, hey, this is really uncomfortable anxiety, I’m feeling anxiety about the situation. I don’t know what’s going to happen. But I’m choosing to ground myself in love in this moment for myself, and I’m choosing it for myself.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my powerful, inspiring interview with renowned holistic, leadership, and life coach, Natasha Lindor Hahn.
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Top 5 Divorce Mistakes to Avoid by Marcy Hahn
ONE Lucky Person that Downloads the FREE Gift WILL WIN a Free 90-Minute Session with Marcy Herself!
The post Ep 24: Exclusive Interview with Renowned Life Coach, Natasha Lindor Hahn & Our Grand Prize Winner Reveal! appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 23: Marcy Opens Up and Reveals How She Made the Leap to Start Her Own Law Firm appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
In this episode, Marcy is interviewed by her legal assistant and friend, Rachel Posigian. Marcy opens up about how she decided to make the leap and start her own law firm. At that time, Marcy was serving as Lead Counsel for Ford Motor Company. Tune in to hear how she leaned into her fear in order to make the jump, and how she uses her own difficult experience of divorce to help her clients. Hear the ‘magic’ behind Marcy’s hard work and learn how you, too, can use your challenging life experiences as stepping stones to find your true calling in life. Learn more about Marcy, Rachel, and their many success stories at https://lotuslegalsolutions.com/
Hi, I’m Marcy Hahn. This is Divorce: What to Expect. On today’s episode, we’re going to flip things around, and my legal assistant Rachel Posigian is going to ask me the questions. Rachel is an RN turned legal assistant extraordinare. Rachel is from a large Armenian family and is a first generation American on her mom’s side. Her mom came from Beirut, Lebanon when she was just 14. Her dad was born and raised in Detroit, and was a self-made first-generation American who worked at Ford for 40 years. Rachel graduated from Medina University with a Bachelors of Science in Nursing. She’s always had this simple desire to help other people and nursing was her original path, but she found she was not really passionate about it, so she decided to become a nanny. And that’s where our paths cross. She became a nanny for my two young kids when I was working at Ford. And when I decided to make the leap from working at Ford, to figuring out what was next, Rachel was with me every step of the way. And on today’s episode, we’re gonna have Rachel ask me some questions about what that transition was like and what our journey together has been like.
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Family Law and Divorce
I always joke and say that Rachel is like the other half of my brain.
So we’re very excited to have Rachel here as our special guest interviewer.
Marcy:
Welcome, Rachel.
Rachel:
Hi, Marcy. I’m so excited to be here doing this with you.
Marcy:
Thank you. Me too.
Rachel:
So I think this is gonna be really fun for our listeners to hear me ask you all the questions. And to see, you know, how this all came to be? So the first question, I think, is that most people may not know that you didn’t plan on starting your own firm and or even have another job lined up when you decided to leave Ford. So how did you decide to take that leap? And without having the security that most people like having when leaving a job, and did you have any fears doing that?
Marcy:
That’s a great question. I did. I had a couple fears. And it’s true that I didn’t really know what I was going to do next. I knew I was ready for a change. And I had come to a point where I felt like the work I was doing was just not meaningful, and I really needed to make a shift in my life. And Ford offered buyouts to all of its lawyers. And the buyout that it offered had a deadline. And it was on a Monday at 5pm. I can’t tell you the exact date, but it was in the summer, I think it was in July, 5pm on a Monday. And as I was considering whether to accept it, I kept thinking to myself, how am I going to feel at 5:01pm on that Monday, if I don’t say yes to this offer. And I was afraid of how I would feel, if I didn’t say yes to the buyout, because I just felt like it was an opportunity for me to make a mid-career shift. And I was more afraid of not leaving, or I was more afraid of staying than I was about making the change. And I think that for a lot of people, you tend to stay in something until you’re just really, really ready and I was ready, the opportunity was there. And so off I went. And it was really scary. I took four months off. I decided I’m just going to detox from the corporate environment. And then I just had some level of self-confidence that I would be able to figure it out, and that I would be able to find a way to use my law degree in a more meaningful way.
Rachel:
Yeah, and actually, as you’re saying, I do, because I was working for you at the time. And I remember seeing you in process of making that decision. And I think at one point, I thought for sure you were going to stay. And then maybe it was that weekend that you told me I’m leaving? And I was so shocked, but there was a clear difference just in your demeanor, and it felt like you finally made a decision that you felt was right, and you’re going to go with it. So I, and you did say you did have fears? So how were you able to push down those fears? And what helped you to overcome? Or was it more just the fear was stronger to stay than to leave?
Marcy:
I would say I leaned into the fear. So there’s this great quote that I often think of. And the quote is that ‘you may not know the road, but you’ve committed yourself to the way.’ And to me, that’s like a really beautiful way to think about things because while you may not know, oh, I’m going to turn right, I’m going to turn left, I’m going to stop, I’m going to go faster… so you might not know exactly how you’re going to do it. You just know that you’re committed to a better and different way. And I was committed to a better and a different way for myself, and for my family. I also felt like, because of the nature of my work at Ford, I was working so much, not that I’m not working a lot now, but I was working a lot of hours and I was traveling. And I felt in some way like I was missing out on a part of my kids growing up time that I was never going to get back. So I think one of the biggest fears is around money. I mean, I was leaving a very secure position. And it was a lucrative position. I had a wonderful career there. I met many wonderful people, and I learned so much. And there are a lot of things about it that are wonderful. And I was walking away from that security. But I felt like in a way I was trading it for something that didn’t have a price because I was never going to get back the years of my life that I was going to get with my kids, if I was able to shift my career in a way where I could work closer to where I live. When I worked at Ford, I was commuting, and, you know, maybe travel less. I just felt that I could be more present for my kids as they grew. And that was something that was really important to me too.
Rachel:
Yeah, that’s powerful. And I think I do remember, a lot of us talking about, you know, the securities illusion, you know, the things that we hold on to, you know, like this job, and this money, all these things could be taken away from us at a moment’s notice anyway. And so, I think that was a huge driving force to step out and say, we’re going to acknowledge that it’s all an illusion anyway, and just go for this because it could just be such a better life. And I mean, I don’t think you have any regrets. Is that right?
Marcy:
I do not have any regrets. I still keep in touch with people at Ford. I have dear friendships from my time there. And I have never looked back.
Rachel:
So for you, you know, you had to overcome maybe your own fears. I mean, your own voices telling you not to make this decision. Did you have any outside opinions on your choice? And if so, how did you deal with that?
Marcy:
I did, I had many outside opinions. I have deep and very meaningful relationships with my family and with friends in my life. And many of those friends and family were extremely supportive of my decision to leave Ford. What was more interesting was the level of support in terms of what to do next. So I think that there were many opinions about me finding a more traditional job…
Next, you should just, you know, go to another company or go to another firm or you may go to something that’s already established. And I felt really like I didn’t necessarily want to just step into some other either corporate or firm environment. I really wanted to create an environment. And I just I wanted to see where that would go. So some of the resistance I got were the opinions I got from some friends and family were a little bit more like, ‘Oh, you know, do something a little safer.’ I had one person tell me that if I did start my own firm, that I would be lucky if I could make enough money to send my kids to summer camp. And I thought to myself, wow, yeah, right, like, Okay, thanks for your input. I thankfully didn’t listen to that comment.
And believe me, there were days when I first started the firm where I thought, oh my god, am I going to need something new. But anyway, people definitely have opinions about what you should do and what you shouldn’t do. But I was committed to my new path. And one of the things I learned through the process was that I had to let things kind of unfold. I had been a planner my whole life, right? So I was the valedictorian of my high school. And then I went to college and then I really wanted to be a lawyer and I didn’t step off that train and I became a lawyer and then worked at a firm and then worked at Ford and my whole life, I’ve just been taking the next step that in my head I thought I should take and this time, it was like, okay, we don’t know what’s next. We’re just going to take it as it comes. And be present in the moment. I think I’ve really learned to be present in the moment in a better way. And we’re going to watch it unfold. And Rachel I think you and I have really watched this business unfold in an organic and meaningful way. Rachel, you’ve been with me every step of the way. So you know what has that felt like?
Rachel:
When we first started, it was it didn’t feel comfortable at all. I mean, I was working out of I think your kitchen table at one point and you know, your whole house was flooded with, you know, just the work that we were going to do. And what I remember very clearly and I think that what I’ve learned from this process and just from watching you go through it was to make the decision, we’re going to do this and we’re just going to figure it out as it comes. Because, you know, all these fears would come up like well, how do we do this? How do we work this out? But you just calmly say, you know, okay, we’re just going to figure out and we’ll do this and we’ll check off the list and even though it felt like we were you know, floating in this void of are we a real firm yet? Are we not? We just kept walking through it. And I admired your calmness to be calm amongst the chaos and to was really about feeling this feels out of control, but to find comfort in that.
Marcy:
That is such a great observation that you’re making. It’s just about taking the next right step. And so what’s interesting about that, in the context of family law is that lots of times when clients come, they’re overwhelmed, their life is falling apart. They’re getting divorced. They’re dealing with their kids, they’re dealing with a spouse, they’re working, they’re so stressed out. And it’s an analogy to this is to think you just have to take the next right step. If you sit back and say, Oh, my God, this is overwhelming how am I ever going to do this? You know, you wouldn’t want to get out of bed in the morning. But if you just take that next right step, and there really isn’t a wrong step, either. I should just say the next organic step, then you can figure out the road along your path.
Rachel:
Yeah, I feel like in many ways you can identify with a lot of your clients now because you’re forging this new path. And in many ways, a lot of our clients are doing that as well. They’re completely changing their lives, and a lot of people stay where they are because they’re afraid to make the move. So I was going to ask you about how, why were you drawn to family law over other areas of law? Because it’s so drastically different from what you had been doing before?
Marcy:
Yes, that’s a great question. So first, I would say it is drastically different. There also are some things about it that are similar. So in a sense, the business side of it, when you’re dissolving a family, unfortunately, you’re not dissolving it, you’re restructuring it. It’s somewhat like on the financial side, deconstructing a business. So certainly my corporate work has helped me help prepare me to do Family Law. But what really drew me to it was wanting to use my law degree in a way that really helps people move forward in their life. So the very foundational way that I think about that is when most people start a law firm, they name it after themself. So it’d be like the Law Offices of Marcy Hahn. And I thought, who wants to work there, no one wants to work there. The reason I picked the name of the firm, which is Lotus Legal Solutions, is because I wanted the whole firm to be about the process of moving forward and moving on.
So a lotus flower is one of the most beautiful flowers in the world. And it blooms following its beginnings in murky, stagnant water. And to me, this is a perfect metaphor for taking people from where they might feel stuck in the mud to really helping them bloom again. And that imagery for me is a great reminder that it’s not about me. It’s not about the firm. It’s about the intention. It’s about the intention that we’ve set to really help people move forward and move on.
Tune in to the episode to hear Marcy’s inspiring story behind making the jump to start her own firm and what drove her to pursue family law.
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The post Ep 23: Marcy Opens Up and Reveals How She Made the Leap to Start Her Own Law Firm appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 22: Special Guest Interview with Family Law Expert & Author Jude Egan appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
In this episode, Marcy Hahn welcomes special guest, Jude Egan. Jude is a certified Family Law Specialist certified by the California State Bar Board of Legal Specialization. He graduated law school from the University of California Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law in 2004. While working at a major international law firm in San Francisco doing civil litigation and land use work, he wrote his doctoral dissertation in jurisprudence and social policy. Dr. Egan has litigated over 1,000 family law cases of all different types and has been published internationally in numerous legal, trade and academic journals. His practice serves English and Spanish speaking clients in Santa Barbara and San Louis Obispo counties. Egan’s new book, “$35 Divorce,” set to be released in 2021, dives into how to get divorced, keep the house and spend less doing it. Tune in to hear Jude’s unique perspective and expertise on the intersection of family law and divorce. Learn more about Jude Egan, his practice and publications, by visiting https://judeegan.com/.
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Family Law and Divorce
Marcy:
Welcome, Jude and thank you for joining us.
Jude:
It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Marcy:
Absolutely. What inspired you to dedicate your practice to family law?
Jude:
What’s funny as I listened to you describe my bio it doesn’t seem like I would end up in family law. I had originally set out to be a law professor and would have practice probably taught in the area of land use law, which is really where I got my start. What happened was in 2008, two major events happen. First, I was going to be a father. And my daughter’s mother didn’t want to leave this area of California, which is truly beautiful the central coast of California, but my first job offer was to go to Baton Rouge, Louisiana to go to LSU. And I didn’t want to leave my daughter here. So that was kind of the first thing and the second thing that happened was the financial crisis. And I had been representing developers in the early part of my career at a time when land values and lending sort of dried up. And so a lot of that practice started to kind of crumble around me. And I looked for another way to have a practice. So I hung a shingle there was a really senior lawyer in this community who told me that if you’re going to be a lawyer here, you have to keep your doors open to either family law or criminal law. And I knew I didn’t want to be a criminal lawyer. So by default, I became a family lawyer.
Marcy:
Awesome. So what is your philosophy when it comes to representing clients in a family law case? What do you bring to the case from your own personal custody experience?
Jude:
Well, a lot of my philosophy as a lawyer actually came from the former dean at my law school, John Dwyer, who was my property professor and he sat us down at one point, the whole class that he was teaching, and he said, ‘You know, one of the big problems with lawyers is that they do all the talking, and they’d hardly ever do any listening.’ And when I went out into practice, when I worked for other people, I would have these experiences of sitting down in an interview with a potential new client, and the client would talk for about a minute, then the partner I’d be sitting with would talk for 59 minutes and then say, ‘Now, we need the $20,000 retainer,’ and then the client would either write the check or wouldn’t write the check. And then they would be sort of at the mercy of the firm litigating their cases. And what John Dwyer really wanted us to do was listen. So, my philosophy has always been to sit down with a client and let them talk; let them talk through what’s going on. Often, as you know, they’re angry or they’re hurt, or they’re sad. They feel a whole range of emotions, and I want them to get those emotions out. And to start to kind of vent about it a little bit. And then I just kind of ask questions, ultimately, sort of educating them on the basics of the law that, you know, in California in particular, you know, we’re going to divide things by two, we need to figure out what it is that’s getting divided by two and at first and then we have to figure out how to do it. I often ask people at the end of our meeting, first meeting, you know, if you were king or queen, of the world, and you understood the basics of the law now, how would you divide it? What is the thing that you would do? And I find that people are often very reasonable when I do that, and then I say, Okay, well, let’s drive toward that. That’s what we’re going to try to do. And I tell them, you might get 47%. But if you get everything that you want, you should see that or would you see that as a win? You know, if you get 53%, would you see that as a win? I mean, we’re going to try to divide this in half. But we want to give you the half that you want most.
Marcy:
It’s important to get your clients to focus on the big picture, right? Because so often they can get caught up in the minutiae of fighting over whatever a couch or a chair or a table, and it’s like, pick the top five things that you’re most concerned about and drive for those. That’s always such good advice.
Jude:
Exactly. And I also think, you know, California, I’m very California-centric, because I just don’t know enough about other states. But I think that California has a lot of esoteric concepts and family law that has to do with, you know, reimbursement rights and inheritance rights and a number of things like that. And I really try to counsel clients, you know, to tell them, we should ask for these things, but we shouldn’t spend, you know, your entire 401K trying to educate a judge about something that’s very esoteric, because, you know, typically, if they don’t understand it, they don’t rule on it, or they don’t like it or whatever. So you should be fixated on getting your case done, getting a fair outcome, and not getting bogged down really in the weeds on stuff.
Marcy:
Tell us a little bit about your book. The title is very intriguing. I’m very interested to hear how one would go about getting divorced for $35. It sounds like if your book is the case, we’ll all be out of business.
Jude:
Well, so the book is really in two parts. The first part is what I call the 50,000 foot view, which is trying to help educate people about the very basic incentive structures. For example, in California, I think that we have complicated property rules. But I think they can really be boiled down to just three rules, which is everything you had before you got married is still yours. Everything you got during the marriage gets divided by two. The third rule is except gifts and inheritances. And if you can do that, if you know that those are the three rules, then you can reason to the right outcome or reasonable outcome regarding basically everything that you have. And that can be you know, unvested stock options that can be, you know, defined benefit plans. I know you had a guest on a couple weeks ago who talked about quadros that can be you know, dishes and silverware. Anything that has value. And the point I try to make is, if you start with the premise that the very best thing you can do is finish your case, and be done and go on with your life that that being the most important thing that you should always do. And then I can walk you through or I do walk through in the book. Here’s how the incentive structures work, or here’s how the law works as a general proposition, here’s how you’re going to figure out support. And, you know, if you make $30,000 a month, and your spouse has always been a stay at home, mother or father, you’re going to pay support. There’s no miracle worker out there lawyer who’s going to not have a support payment when there’s that much difference in income. So don’t fight that stuff, get to the basics of it, find a good number, and push to see if you can get your spouse to agree to it.
So then the other part of it is part of that I mentioned before, which is not litigating the esoteric areas of the law, you spend $10,000 to try to get $10,000 when your spouse is playing for a chance, even great lawyers have a hard time educating stubborn judges. So the overall push is to give you a basic idea of here’s how you should be thinking about it.
I developed something where I try to teach people how to develop what I call the range of reasonable outcomes, which is, this is if your spouse gets everything they’re asking for reasonably, this is one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum is you get everything that you’re asking for reasonably. And we know the outcome is going to be between the two of those things. So settlement offers anywhere in that reasonable range, should be taken seriously. You should spend your time making settlement offers within that range of reasonable again, under the theory, I don’t want to pay my lawyer 25 grand to fight over 25 grand, let’s get this thing done. And then for us, I think it doesn’t put us out of business because there’s always more divorces there’s I mean, that is the kind of business that is constant. Like my senior lawyer told me when I first came here, there’s always more people who need help. And you know, if we don’t have to bleed, another layer told me once, you know, you can make the first retainer money pretty easily. But every dollar you make after that comes with blood, we’re not leading. We get to live happy, healthy lives, we get to help more people. And I think ultimately, our clients are more satisfied and happier, too. So I think it’s a win for everybody.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my insightful interview with Family Law Specialist, Jude Egan.
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Top 5 Divorce Mistakes to Avoid by Marcy Hahn
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The post Ep 22: Special Guest Interview with Family Law Expert & Author Jude Egan appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 21: Featured Guest Interview with Criminal Justice Attorney Yasmine Poles appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
In this episode, Marcy Hahn welcomes the Criminal Justice Attorney and founder of Yasmine Law, Yasmine Poles, to the show. Yasmine specializes in Criminal Defense representation after having served as a prosecutor for 15 years in the Macomb County prosecutor’s office in Mount Clemens, Michigan. Yasmine has prosecuted hundreds of domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse cases. Currently, she serves on Governor Whitmer’s Child Abuse & Neglect Task Force. Tune in to hear Yasmine’s unique perspective on the intersection of domestic violence and family law.
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Domestic Violence and Family Law
Marcy:
Welcome, Yasmine. And thank you for joining us.
Yasmine:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure.
Marcy:
So we know that domestic violence is so often an issue in family law cases. What advice do you have for a parent of minor children who is suffering physical abuse at the hands of their partner?
Yasmine:
Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. And I think it happens very often in the divorce dynamic when there are no previous disclosures regarding physical abuse and are only brought up at the time intersecting with the divorce being filed. It does shed light on the actual victim of the physical abuse, where it can kind of be turned as to the victim being re-victimized, providing that physical abuse is only being brought up now in order to gain some kind of advantage in the divorce proceeding.
So my advice for anyone suffering physical abuse, you need to make the appropriate police reports, you need to get that into the hands of the prosecution so that they could further it. Oftentimes as well in my career, I’ve seen a lot of times where people have brought domestic violence cases and they haven’t gone through with it. But at least there’s some type of record to show that there has been some kind of interaction with that family that’s been going on, but that’s a scary thing to do. So, I call it the million-dollar question in a situation like this. Obviously, safety’s number one. So in that strategy, so if you are feeling that you are suffering physical abuse at the hands of the partner, and you finally have the courage to do it, and it does happen to coincide with the time of divorce, you should absolutely report it and move forward. But that is kind of a sticking point of when the disclosure is made and when law enforcement is brought in into it.
Marcy:
So what can be done to really help victims follow through? I see so many instances where they make a report. And then essentially time passes, maybe there’s a reconciliation, they back away then from wanting the prosecutor to press charges. But inevitably, the cycle comes back around, and they tend to find themselves in that same position again. What can be done to help somebody in that situation? So that they feel safe getting the help they need? Should they be thinking about going into a shelter somewhere? Should they move to live with a friend? How can somebody navigate that really scary time of making the decision to move on with their life in a safer way?
Yasmine:
Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So it’s the cycle of violence, right? You kind of go through it. There’s the actual physical or emotional abuse and there’s the honeymoon period, and then there’s the reification. And it just kind of cycles over where there’s a hope that’s not going to happen again. But then inevitably, it does happen again. In my years as a prosecutor, when I had cases of domestic violence and I had quite a few of these, I would personally call up the complainant to ask them to come to court to stand up to their funder. And actually in Michigan, there’s a law that allows the parties to stay together and get anger management for the party who is the abuser and helps to try to keep the family together. So it was something that I definitely encourage people to come forward with, but it is scary and they don’t want to come forward with it. And a lot of times after, it’s the call to the police department immediately so somebody can come help them and save them at that moment. But afterwards, they’re not gonna follow through because they’re scared of the ramification. And like, we know in situations of domestic violence, physical abuse, oftentimes families are alienated from their relatives, they’re separated from those people. So there’s not a lot of people to reach out to people in law enforcement and prosecutors are familiar with us. There’s tons of training that’s given to the appropriate people. Oftentimes prosecutor’s office should have in most in our area do have a victim advocacy unit where a victim advocate can be called and spoken to, and that person can give the individual guidance as to shelters if necessary. Just advice on how to manage and, and work through it, when I oftentimes see and saw as a prosecutor is that offenders of this actually back down, people are typically scared of what the reaction is going to be. But because they know law enforcement is involved, it’s probably the best time for the complainant or the victim to move forward in the process and where they’re safe, because there’s a detective on the line that’s always wanting to take that call, hopefully, and there’s a resource out there. So I would say obviously pursue it. Don’t be scared, go through with it. And there’s a way to go through the process without horrible things happening to the person that you’re complaining about.
Marcy:
So what about child protective services? What role do they play in a situation where someone may have minor children? There’s abuse going on in the home, and they’re trying to get away from it, but they keep going back to it. Is that something that child protective services may get involved in? Because essentially, the parent who’s being abused is also exposing the children to that abuse.
Yasmine:
Yeah, I can see something like that happening. Oftentimes what would happen is that child will go to school, and let’s assume in for purposes of what we’re saying, it’s not the child that’s being physically abused, right, just seeing the ramifications of abuse at home. But that does take a toll on that child emotionally very much, especially in tender years. And so if somebody were to have a conversation with the child, the child would make a disclosure where they were scared to go home or they were scared that dad was gonna hurt mom or mom was gonna hurt dad. And then a report was done. Pursuant to mandatory disclosure laws that was reported to Child Protective Services, there would be an investigation that came through and both parents would then get questioned and looked into. So yeah, it definitely places the kids in jeopardy when a victim of such abuse is not able to kind of stand up to what’s going on. It does flow over to the children, unfortunately.
Marcy:
So some cases I see involve one partner who is mentally or emotionally abusive, but has drawn the line at not being physically abusive, and I’ve actually had clients say that they wish… it sounds really sad and unusual… but they actually wish that the abuse had been physical because it seems that there are different protections when it’s physical, rather than it just being mental or emotional. So is there any protection available to somebody who is being mentally and emotionally abused as opposed to being physically abused?
Yasmine:
In the criminal aspect? There’s no criminal statute that I’m aware of that entails criminal prosecution for emotional or verbal abuse.
Marcy:
What about a PPO?
Yasmine:
Under what circumstances?
Marcy:
Would it be appropriate to seek a personal protection order in a case that involves a level of harassment but not physical altercations?
Yasmine:
Yeah, I mean a level of mental harassment and stalking, those sorts of things. Harassment and stalking are definitely things that could bring up criminal charges or PPO. In that case, however, the assailant or the perpetrator has to be notified by the victim that they don’t want any further contact with them. And they have to put that person on notice. And then if that person continues to harass them or do things directly or indirectly, to try to harm them or threaten them, then yeah, that’s absolutely something that could happen in a criminal prosecution or in a personal protection order. But the fine line there is the person has to be told that they don’t want any contact with you and it has to be made known.
Marcy:
And what’s the best way to tell someone that it doesn’t have to be in writing? What advice do you give in terms of putting someone on notice that you’re telling them stop contacting me?
Yasmine:
Yeah, I would tell the person go behind you for the contact with you, I would send in a text message or an email, I would block that person’s phone number, I would make sure that that my locks have changed. So that person no longer has access into my home that it’s a very clear clear delineation regarding there being no further contact with each other. And then after that contact is being had I would definitely get law enforcement involved because you know, specifically in Michigan, the stalking charges require two or more unwanted contacts. So you definitely want to be taken down the information regarding when the contact was made, what you did in order to not have contact with that person. All that stuff would be taken into consideration by the prosecuting attorney who would decidedly determine whether or not a crime is committed.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my eye-opening interview with Criminal Justice Attorney and Former Prosecutor, Yasmine Poles.
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The post Ep 21: Featured Guest Interview with Criminal Justice Attorney Yasmine Poles appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 20: Special Guest Interview with Sacred Sexuality Expert Dr. Stormy Hill appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
In this episode, Marcy welcomes special guest Dr. Stormy Hill. Stormy is passionate about sensuality and helping others connect to their sacred sexuality. With degrees from Duke University, an MD from Michigan State University, and an MA in occupational therapy from the University of Southern California, she bases her sacred sexuality work on her intrinsic understanding and love of all aspects of the human brain and body. Stormy is committed to helping women and men reconnect with their sense of aliveness and connection to the body. Tune in to hear from this expert about how you can heal from divorce and learn to revitalize your love life by connecting to your sacred sexuality.
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Connecting to Your Sacred Sexuality
Marcy:
Welcome, Stormy, and thank you for joining us.
Stormy:
Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here with all of you.
Marcy:
What is love deep lab and what inspired you to create it?
Stormy:
It’s really a place to come to learn how to reconnect with your own sensuality, sexuality, your own body, and really to fall in love with yourself. To become and be your own Beloved, and what a powerful time to really do that work as you are divorcing, or post-divorce or even just thinking about divorce. It’s such a tender time to really reconnect with yourself and to really, I say that with all the clients I work with to be your own Beloved, and to fall in love with the with yourself as the as your own Beloved, really that sovereignty, peace and that deep connection. And also love deep lab is a community of light-hearted people doing the work, doing the practice to live life turned on, to live life in touch with our sexual energy.
Marcy:
And what inspired you to create this?
Stormy:
In medical school, I actually thought about being a sex therapist and did some internships in sex therapy, and I love medicine. I love the brain. I love the body. I have an absolute respect for physiology. But for me, there was something it’s sort of like you don’t know what you don’t know, there was something that was just missing in the western approach. For me, that was a little bit more prescriptive than I was sort of resonating with, but again, I didn’t know and then through when I discovered sacred sexuality, as I was going through my divorce, I fell in love with it. You know, when you find something that you’re like, Oh my gosh, that’s how I’ve always thought about something and always felt about something I just didn’t have the scaffolding or the education or the information until I did so I would say is my own personal practice over the last 14 years, but also in my own sexual journey with being going from being married for a long time to being single to big with lovers to being celibate to being serial monogamy, just sort of my own journey through these different phases as I was growing and understanding myself. I would say another really important piece for me that sort of helped us in the creation of this was just I really feel heartbroken to be honest about the all the unhappy partnerships out there and not the divorce rate, but the unhappy partnerships that you know, 85% of monogamous couples report, a concern or a problem in the area of sexuality and that’s reported so my guess is it’s more like 95%. You know, so really, yeah, just a tenderness around that. And it’s my passion work. I just kind of had a circuitous path of getting here. And it really is a joy and a privilege and an honor for me to guide people in the realm of sacred sexuality.
Marcy:
So let’s break that down a little bit. How does this work? I come to you and I say, Stormy, I am going through a divorce. I’m having a terrible time. I need to figure out how I can move on with my life and, and really be happy and find a partner that I’m connected with sexually. How would you start to help me?
Stormy:
Yeah, that’s an awesome question. Sacred sexuality is a little bit like what the heck is that, right? Exactly like femoral, ethereal, mystical, and it is, I will tell you, it is all of those things. And it’s also really based in science and physiology, which is that kind of merging is one of the things I love the most about it. So, you know, I think and for those of you out there listening, you might be saying how can I even be thinking about sexualilty while going through a divorce? Or recently post-divorce? And I would say that that’s the perfect time to really get curious about what do you want to create moving forward in your life, in terms of your own sexuality, your own sensuality, your own experience of pleasure. And even though it can be a very painful time it is a very tender time and tender hearts are beautiful hearts. So it’s really a beautiful time to get curious about that and to explore that.
I worked with a meditation teacher, Deborah, who once said, ‘wherever we put our attention is sacred.’ And I love that. So it’s really about attention and intention. It’s about practicing presence. It’s about feeling embodied. It’s about deep sensation and full emotion. And then it’s also about allowing in the divine. I love it and I can’t remember who said it, I read an article recently where she said there’s a reason people say, ‘oh God,’ when they’re having an orgasm, like there is a sort of, there’s some sort of connection to something bigger, something more magical than our own limited bodies. And so that’s one part of sacred sexuality.
I would say that the second really important piece is a reclaiming or rediscovering of sex as this is the most potent energy on the planet, right? It really is. What other energies might rival would be like atomic, you know, energy, and that’s about destruction. But sexual energy is the only energy on the planet that has the ability to create life. None of us would be here if it weren’t for sexual energy. And so it’s really a reclaiming of rediscovering and also finding an innocence again in sexual energy and the power of sexual energy. And not separating out spirituality from sexuality, body and nature. Originally, those two things were very connected, and then over time, they got not only separated, but really like we have so much shaming and repression around sexuality and sensuality in our culture. And so it’s really kind of reconciling those two, again, as the really beautiful merging that they actually are.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my amazing interview with the wonderful Dr. Stormy Hill!
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The post Ep 20: Special Guest Interview with Sacred Sexuality Expert Dr. Stormy Hill appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 19: Featured Guest Interview with Financial Planner & Domestic Relations Expert Carrie Cole appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
In this episode, Marcy Hahn welcomes special guest Carrie Cole to the show to discuss the workings of qualified domestic relations orders. Carrie is a certified financial planner and is trained in both domestic relations mediation as well as the collaborative legal process. With over 20 years of experience drafting and reviewing qualified domestic relations orders, Carrie’s expertise and advice regarding this process are not to be missed! Carrie has spent her career helping attorneys and clients in reviewing and analyzing divorce settlements, assisting with discovery, and providing expert witness testimony and trial support. Marcy and Carrie discuss the role of qualified domestic relations orders in the divorce process and why you may need one. Tune in to also hear common mistakes that are made during this process and how to safeguard your financial future by not making the same missteps during your divorce.
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Financial Planning & Domestic Relations
Marcy:
Welcome, Carrie, and thank you for joining us.
Carrie:
Thank you for having me.
Marcy:
So what is a qualified domestic relations order? And why would somebody getting divorced need one?
Carrie:
A qualified domestic relations order, or Quadro for short, is the document that would divide a qualified plan, a retirement plan, like a pension, a 401K, or 457 plan. It does not apply to IRAs. But this document is necessary if you would like to receive a distribution from your partner’s retirement plan from work.
Marcy:
Okay, and what are some of the key questions that somebody getting divorced where they know there’s a pension asset that’s going to need to be divided? What are some of the key questions clients should be thinking about?
Carrie:
What’s really important is, first of all, gathering information and gathering statements. With pensions, especially, those are so tricky. You should actually have your pension information even before you start negotiating. We just did one for a client and we had to negotiate after the judgment was signed, because it was so tricky. But the big thing is to get your statements and try to figure out what you want. If you’re getting a pension, there’s certain ways to divide the pension, some work for certain circumstances, and some don’t work for certain circumstances. And with 401Ks everyone thinks that they’re straightforward, but they’re not. You have to think about do you want to cash out with the stock market being the way it is? Or do you want gains and losses? So I believe that the Quadro negotiation should begin almost immediately.
Marcy:
Okay, and what is the timeline for a Quadro?
Carrie:
That depends on how well prepared everyone is. I’ve seen quadros take a year. I’ve seen quadros take 30 days. Normally what happens is the decision gets made in the judgment. You hire the Quadro person, usually about 10 days to draft. Everyone signs and reviews, maybe another week, and then it goes off to court. And it comes back and then it goes out to the Quadro company or the plan. And that can take 30 to 60 days. So I would say if you were doing a Quadro you might want to plan on no less than 60 days, possibly 90.
Marcy:
And how does someone figure out what they need be entitled to? So I have a lot of clients who come and they know that their spouse has a pension. They don’t have a pension and they don’t really understand how to measure what they may be entitled to or what the marital share may look like. Can you explain what the marital share looks like to be divided and how somebody would go about deciding what they may be entitled to under the pension?
Carrie:
Right. And that’s why getting a Quadro person involved right from the beginning is so helpful. I happen to be a little bit prejudiced because our firm we have five Quadro people, and I realized that if it’s a legal document, attorneys need to be involved. But this also is a financial asset, with a pension. There are marital years, you want to be able to take this pension prior to somebody retiring. You know, take it early. If the alternate payee as we call them, or let’s say the spouse starts taking the pension and they die, what happens? Does it bounce back to the participant? There are all these questions. And that’s why it’s so important to start the dialogue early.
Marcy:
And how is it determined whether you are able to continue to receive a benefit after your spouse, who was the primary recipient of the pension, passes away? Is it possible that you could outlive your former spouse and then continue to receive benefits under the plan? Or is that something that will automatically cease? Once your spouse has passed away?
Carrie:
Well, it depends most of the time. That’s why you want to get the Quadro done, and have it done, hopefully at the time of divorce so that you become a survivor spouse. We have many situations, for example, as somebody has been divorced for a while and the participant or the retiree has taken the pension out over their lifetime only. And if that Quadro isn’t done, as soon as that participant dies, the Quadro dies, the payments die. And that’s why you want to grab it early so that you can put it in survivorship provisions.
Marcy:
So can you be a surviving spouse under a Quadro even if your former spouse remarries someone else after your divorce?
Carrie:
I would say most of the time, yes. There are some quirky plans out there. For example, when I’m calling it the alternate payee, that’s the spouse that’s receiving the pension benefit, there was language in there that they couldn’t get remarried. But yes, it depends on how it’s written up. The new spouse should be entitled to something as well, later on down the road. But yes, it’s all in how it’s written.
Marcy:
Okay. So that’s one of the other issues, I guess that needs to be thought about during the drafting process. What are the some of the mistakes that you see people make regarding Quadros? And how can those mistakes be avoided?
Carrie:
So I would say there are so many mistakes, it’s unbelievable. The first thing is you’ve got to get them done. I have one right now from 30 years ago, and he’s already collecting his pension and she could have had those payments. She forgot about it. I had another person who was actually, a friend of mine, she forgot about hers. And this was a 401K he withdrew the money and went into and bought a retail franchise. So you’ve got to get them done. Timeliness is everything. And if you don’t have that Quadro done, and that participant dies the day after the divorce, you might be out… and I had a case like that where it was a fidelity plan, and she never notified the plan that a Quadro was pending. And they said we’re sorry, we didn’t know you didn’t put us on notice. And there’s nothing we can do. So I would say get the Quadro started, and I would put the plan on notice and there are ways to do that.
And then I would start the dialogue with the Quadro person with human resources. This is an area where your divorce attorney can really either help or hurt you. I think because so often once the divorce judgment is entered. You know, I think that the both the individual litigants and unfortunately sometimes the attorney says okay, we’re done that case is over. Let’s move on. And sometimes there needs to be some follow up after the judgments entered to make sure that all the provisions of the divorce judgment are effectuated. So whether it’s needing a quitclaim deed to property or entering a Quadro, obviously these are very important steps that still have to be taken even after your divorce judgment is entered. We find that the Quadro seems to be done last. And then when we start drafting the Quadro we find that the judgment language doesn’t match. We find that the judgment is either too vague or we find that the judgment is trying to award something that they can’t have. And now, after the judgment, everybody has to come back to the table. And sometimes there has to be an amendment, a motion filed to change the language. And that’s why if you can start the dialogue early, it’s helpful. And then you can make sure at least in a perfect world that the judgment of divorce language matches and is clear about the intent of the parties, and then that intent can more easily probably be carried out in the Quadro later.
And I’ll give you an example… union plans. Most union plans, the spouse or the alternate payee cannot have the money until the main spouse retires. And there are so many people said, Well, I was expecting a lump sum from the annuity. Nope, can’t have it until they either separate from service, don’t work for the union anymore, or retire.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my insightful interview with domestic relations mediation expert, Carrie Cole.
Here’s a Free Gift from Marcy
Top 5 Divorce Mistakes to Avoid by Marcy Hahn
ONE Lucky Person that Downloads the FREE Gift WILL WIN a Free 90-Minute Session with Marcy Herself!
The post Ep 19: Featured Guest Interview with Financial Planner & Domestic Relations Expert Carrie Cole appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 18: Navigating the Intersection of Bankruptcy & Divorce with Special Guest Bankruptcy Law Expert Michelle Bass appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
Hi, I’m Marcy Hahn. This is Divorce: What to Expect. On today’s episode, we’re going to get a view from the family court in Michigan. And we have a special guest Referee Ryan O’Neil. Referee O’Neil is a friend of the court referee with Oakland County Circuit Court. He is an expert in the area of domestic relations law, and he assists in helping the court make decisions about family law cases that are pending before it. He’s a member of the State Bar of Michigan’s Family Law Section and the Oakland Bar Association, where he previously served as the family court committee chair. He’s also a member of the Oakland County Bar Foundation and the Referees Association of Michigan. Mr. O’Neil is also a member of the Incorporated Society of Irish American Lawyers, and has published articles and is co-author for a monthly column as well as the co-editor of the State Bar of Michigan’s Family Law Journal. Mr. O’Neil also serves as an adjunct professor of business law at Oakland Community College.
Learn More
Domestic Relations Law Expert
Welcome Referee O’Neil.
O’Neil:
Hi, Marcy. Thanks so much for having me.
Marcy:
Well, thanks for participating. This is really exciting. What can you tell our listeners about your role in the family court system in Michigan and how it has changed with COVID?
O’Neil:
So my role, as you stated, is to assist the court in matters particularly involving the subjects of custody parenting time and child support. So when a case is filed in Oakland County and a party or parties have minor children involved, they will at some juncture appear before the front of the court either for an early intervention conference or possibly on a motion call. And our job is to help the court where the parties may have disagreements over those core issues again of custody, parenting time and child support. So our office assists parties in a number of different areas. We do things such as collect child support, enforce child support orders, conduct hearings on custody, and parenting time disputes. On occasion, we will handle spousal support matters and collect those as well. So there’s a myriad of different things that we are involved in and since COVID-19 entered our lives. What is it now seven years ago? No, two months ago… it feels like an eternity. Really, our role hasn’t changed too much. What’s really changed is sort of how we do the job. And thankfully, we live in an era of technology that allows us to continue to provide access to the court system, even where people are being ordered to shelter in place. So that really, you know, we hear so many of these references to the Spanish Flu in 1918. And I always think my gosh, like, you know, if we were back 100 years ago, having to deal with this, none of the technologies that we really sort of take for granted today would have been available, you’d have just shut down and gone months without having any access to the court systems. And, thankfully for us, you know, our offices, IT departments and our supervisors and our administration really from day one knew sort of two things, number one, that this pandemic was going to be with us for a sustained period of time. But number two, that we needed to swiftly find a way to make sure that people could continue to access the court system. And so, you know, we had folks who had pending Child Support Modification motions, folks who had pending parenting time motions, cases that had custody disputes, people who had filed motions to change their children’s school coming up for next year, folks who had wanted to leave the state of Michigan and move beyond the hundred miles, but they share legal custody with the other parents. So a hearing has to be conducted on that. And so they really did a marvelous job, really within I’d say almost a week of the stay at home orders getting entered, getting all of our staff and referees equipped to basically work from home, stay safe, and also provide access to folks so that they could continue on and keep these cases on a timely track and really not prejudice somebody by saying, ‘Well, sorry, you know, I guess we’ll see what happens in June or July when hopefully the curve is flattened and we can start to lift some of these restrictions.’
Marcy:
That’s great that the courts have been able to be nimble. And to make that switch so seamlessly. Are you seeing an increase in the number of people who are asking for relief from their child support order because they’ve lost their job, or they have had a reduction in their income?
O’Neil:
Some… candidly, I really had thought we would probably see a little bit more. And I think that is probably a testament to the relief that has been afforded to folks. You know, a lot of people who had you know, perhaps previously been filing motions to modify the support might have been folks who had an hourly income that was less than $20 an hour. And so when this pandemic hit, I sort of thought, well, you know, you’re going to see folks who work in the service industry who, you know, restaurants are closed and retail shops are closed. And those are going to be the folks who are going to have to come and really, you know, tweak these orders, while we shelter in place. But with the federal supplement of $600 a week plus, you know, the state at $362 a week, you know, you’ve got folks now earning an average hourly effective rate of $24.50 an hour and so I think that’s really helped to sort of keep, you know, folks not having to access the court system. What will be interesting is going to be what happens when that 13 week period runs out. If there is no additional stimulus provided, then I do think you’re going to see a lot more folks having to come into court particularly if you know, retail remains shuttered and restaurants are operating at a 25 or 50% capacity. And, you know, owners just don’t have the need for as many employees as they did pre COVID-19.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my insightful interview with Referee O’Neil.
Here’s a Free Gift from Marcy
Top 5 Divorce Mistakes to Avoid by Marcy Hahn
ONE Lucky Person that Downloads the FREE Gift WILL WIN a Free 90-Minute Session with Marcy Herself!
The post Ep 18: Navigating the Intersection of Bankruptcy & Divorce with Special Guest Bankruptcy Law Expert Michelle Bass appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
]]>The post Ep 17: Special Guest Interview with Domestic Relations Law Expert & Friend of the Court Referee Ryan O’Neil appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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Overview
Hi, I’m Marcy Hahn. This is Divorce: What to Expect. On today’s episode, we’re going to get a view from the family court in Michigan. And we have a special guest Referee Ryan O’Neil. Referee O’Neil is a friend of the court referee with Oakland County Circuit Court. He is an expert in the area of domestic relations law, and he assists in helping the court make decisions about family law cases that are pending before it. He’s a member of the State Bar of Michigan’s Family Law Section and the Oakland Bar Association, where he previously served as the family court committee chair. He’s also a member of the Oakland County Bar Foundation and the Referees Association of Michigan. Mr. O’Neil is also a member of the Incorporated Society of Irish American Lawyers, and has published articles and is co-author for a monthly column as well as the co-editor of the State Bar of Michigan’s Family Law Journal. Mr. O’Neil also serves as an adjunct professor of business law at Oakland Community College.
Learn More
Domestic Relations Law Expert
Welcome Referee O’Neil.
O’Neil:
Hi, Marcy. Thanks so much for having me.
Marcy:
Well, thanks for participating. This is really exciting. What can you tell our listeners about your role in the family court system in Michigan and how it has changed with COVID?
O’Neil:
So my role, as you stated, is to assist the court in matters particularly involving the subjects of custody parenting time and child support. So when a case is filed in Oakland County and a party or parties have minor children involved, they will at some juncture appear before the front of the court either for an early intervention conference or possibly on a motion call. And our job is to help the court where the parties may have disagreements over those core issues again of custody, parenting time and child support. So our office assists parties in a number of different areas. We do things such as collect child support, enforce child support orders, conduct hearings on custody, and parenting time disputes. On occasion, we will handle spousal support matters and collect those as well. So there’s a myriad of different things that we are involved in and since COVID-19 entered our lives. What is it now seven years ago? No, two months ago… it feels like an eternity. Really, our role hasn’t changed too much. What’s really changed is sort of how we do the job. And thankfully, we live in an era of technology that allows us to continue to provide access to the court system, even where people are being ordered to shelter in place. So that really, you know, we hear so many of these references to the Spanish Flu in 1918. And I always think my gosh, like, you know, if we were back 100 years ago, having to deal with this, none of the technologies that we really sort of take for granted today would have been available, you’d have just shut down and gone months without having any access to the court systems. And, thankfully for us, you know, our offices, IT departments and our supervisors and our administration really from day one knew sort of two things, number one, that this pandemic was going to be with us for a sustained period of time. But number two, that we needed to swiftly find a way to make sure that people could continue to access the court system. And so, you know, we had folks who had pending Child Support Modification motions, folks who had pending parenting time motions, cases that had custody disputes, people who had filed motions to change their children’s school coming up for next year, folks who had wanted to leave the state of Michigan and move beyond the hundred miles, but they share legal custody with the other parents. So a hearing has to be conducted on that. And so they really did a marvelous job, really within I’d say almost a week of the stay at home orders getting entered, getting all of our staff and referees equipped to basically work from home, stay safe, and also provide access to folks so that they could continue on and keep these cases on a timely track and really not prejudice somebody by saying, ‘Well, sorry, you know, I guess we’ll see what happens in June or July when hopefully the curve is flattened and we can start to lift some of these restrictions.’
Marcy:
That’s great that the courts have been able to be nimble. And to make that switch so seamlessly. Are you seeing an increase in the number of people who are asking for relief from their child support order because they’ve lost their job, or they have had a reduction in their income?
O’Neil:
Some… candidly, I really had thought we would probably see a little bit more. And I think that is probably a testament to the relief that has been afforded to folks. You know, a lot of people who had you know, perhaps previously been filing motions to modify the support might have been folks who had an hourly income that was less than $20 an hour. And so when this pandemic hit, I sort of thought, well, you know, you’re going to see folks who work in the service industry who, you know, restaurants are closed and retail shops are closed. And those are going to be the folks who are going to have to come and really, you know, tweak these orders, while we shelter in place. But with the federal supplement of $600 a week plus, you know, the state at $362 a week, you know, you’ve got folks now earning an average hourly effective rate of $24.50 an hour and so I think that’s really helped to sort of keep, you know, folks not having to access the court system. What will be interesting is going to be what happens when that 13 week period runs out. If there is no additional stimulus provided, then I do think you’re going to see a lot more folks having to come into court particularly if you know, retail remains shuttered and restaurants are operating at a 25 or 50% capacity. And, you know, owners just don’t have the need for as many employees as they did pre COVID-19.
Tune in to the episode to hear the rest of my insightful interview with Referee O’Neil.
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The post Ep 17: Special Guest Interview with Domestic Relations Law Expert & Friend of the Court Referee Ryan O’Neil appeared first on Divorce : What To Expect.
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